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Trope Talk: Sins Of The Father

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It's not QUITE revenge, but it's revenge-adjacent. Let's talk about a trope where nobody gets what they deserve! And thanks to patron James for requesting this video!
Shoutout to The Last Of Us II for giving me an absolutely iconic Cycle Of Vengeance example. I love it when stories are creative, but I love it more when they give me a completely by-the-book trope execution to use as an example forever.
(I know that example is one of the best modern illustrations of the trope, but that doesn't make this thumbnail any less patently absurd…)

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2021/05/21

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コメント数 5 038
gala
gala 6 時間 前
ff14 heavensward in 17:43
Lian Miguel G. Santos
such a lust for revenge
Will Kitto
Will Kitto 日 前
I think that TLoU2 did a good job handling its revenge plot, it shows the pain that vengeance cause for both sides, Abby killed Joel and her life didn’t get any better and Ellie lost everything when she gave into her rage and loss. To use a cliche phrase, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind
KanaidBlack
KanaidBlack 2 日 前
This trope is the base of a couple of movies about three cousins all named Luis García (Luis Antonio, José Luis and Luis Manuel) who hate each other because THEIR parents hated each other, and all of them pretty much try to "bring justice" to avenge their father, but the Garcias also have a common enemy for several generations, the López family.
N The One
N The One 2 日 前
Bit confused about the goal of the biblical reference and the statements about the new being obviously better than the old... I agree, when looking at the options outside of biblical context, but the Bible is straight-up about deciding what an unobservable potentially all-powerful being considers objectively true and desires from his alledged creation; there is no way to argue in either direction that doesn't rely on biblical arguments, which have nothing to do with objectivity. Claiming the new is better because it's more recent is just super weird. New doesn't mean better, ESPECIALLY in literal fairy tales that have been contradicting themselves for millenias.
Simon Schnedl
Simon Schnedl 3 日 前
Sounds like a twitter thing.
Jessica Jayes
Jessica Jayes 3 日 前
"Holes" did a good job with this trope.
kraken skull
kraken skull 3 日 前
Attack on Titan Marley and Eldia
Fallenangel 85
Fallenangel 85 4 日 前
Sasuke, the escalation of vengence.
John Doe
John Doe 4 日 前
Be honest. You clicked because Spinel was in the thumbnail.
Silver Tune
Silver Tune 5 日 前
i finished steven universe, the movie, and the future series (after like abandoning it for 2 years) before watching this just in case there were any spoilers XD
The Mad Doctor
The Mad Doctor 5 日 前
I remember reading a story where a young man meets a knight who his father wronged, after a while of talking it turns out the knight didn't come for revenge but rather to make sure the young man wouldn't cause anyone pain like his father. In the end character A decided to simply make sure no suffering of others would be caused by character C because they were related to character B who is now dead.
Cleo LeBlanc
Cleo LeBlanc 5 日 前
The feud in Romeo and Juliet might have been an Investiture Controversy thing. It tore apart Italian society during medieval times as the Pope and the Holy Roman Emperor fought for power.
Maximillio Stephenson
I like the Punisher because he knows deep down that it’s less about avenging his family especially after doing so, and more so because he really likes killing people and needs to justify it to himself by killing only bad guys.
Bobby Ranger
Bobby Ranger 7 日 前
Me: Okay. This will be an examination of a literary trope. Video: Vengeance eventually becomes a justification for mass murder and genocide. Me: Woah!
-Kakao- Katze
-Kakao- Katze 7 日 前
Goodness, I just realised that Warriors (the cat books) does this so many times and so badly that I forgot how interesting this trope can be. Maybe I should make a whole essay about how bad the second arc of the warriors was. I could even write a whole book about it. I don't know why I even still read it anymore. The third arc is good so far. Doesn't make up for the bullshit ending of sunset, though.
Che Delirio
Che Delirio 7 日 前
I like the ue of clips of the Depardieu version of Count of Monte Cristo -- in that story, Dantes arrives at a point where he recoils when he realizes, he is making innocents into collateral damage (partly because he forgets he's not the only one with agency as to how to face the crisis).
lilSpikey
lilSpikey 7 日 前
The feuding families variant has a really good real life example for it: the hayfields and McCoys two families from Appalachia that fought each other for decades for several vague reasons most of which are pretty dumb but it kept getting further and further instigated by both parties resulting in many many deaths
Robin Swede
Robin Swede 8 日 前
This show sucks but that pigtailed thing has mad Goku black vibes
Ashton Imagine
Ashton Imagine 8 日 前
I'd like to share my variation on a trope here: Sins of the Reincarnated. A teenage son defects from his father's treatment of him and goals for his future and eventually falls to death. The magic he carries grants him favor with a primordial deity that grants him a new and better life. More like leaves him in the path of the heartless man out in search of the power his son took to the grave.
Travis Hancock
Travis Hancock 8 日 前
At about 12 minutes in I need a kitten.
Amin Mohamed
Amin Mohamed 8 日 前
Marineford
Pheobey Domea
Pheobey Domea 8 日 前
Okay okay Period cramps are literal blood line curses
Lagu fieldu two-u
the hotel del luna version of this trope is exceptionally interesting
Diego Ulpin
Diego Ulpin 9 日 前
15:07 -> 15:18 When taken to the extreme, we basically have Adam Taurus
Pansexual Doofus
"Back into the nuanced zone there's the feuding families variant" jjba: you called?
Bigfoot4Cool
Bigfoot4Cool 10 日 前
Literally all of the clips could be from Steven Universe and it would still work
spinal spiral
spinal spiral 10 日 前
VENOM SNAKE PUNISHED LEGEND
DarthX4
DarthX4 11 日 前
missing part: when characther is also guilty/complicit in the problem caused by ancestor.
Phoebe Darker
Phoebe Darker 11 日 前
9:50 my thoughts on Disney's granddaughter or whatnot who's calling out the elite 1% whilst being part of it.
George Muronda
George Muronda 12 日 前
Ahhh I don't know how to feel here you both ruined and explained BATMAN!
iLV
iLV 13 日 前
Not sure if I have commented on this video before or not, but I'm loving the clear effort displayed in all these videos :D Keep up the good work!
The DeathSkeleton
Tbh, most people who want Revenge usually screw it up or suck at it, which is why it keeps going. If they were smart, they'd get rid of their enemy and any witnesses or evidence. Done deal. Revenge achieved and cycle ended.
Vladds Tempes
Vladds Tempes 16 日 前
Because it was not mentioned in this episode jet: Avatar actually had an episode concerning the sins of the father: in Chapter Eleven: The Great Divide there are two tribes that hated each other for centruies. So, Spoiler i guess, Aang resolves the situation by making up a complety harmless version of the inciting incident. And then everyone is kinda: okay no more reason to hate each other i guess, lets get along instead. And they do. And it is hillarius to me. Also Avatar is soo good you guys.
Miss Silly Prick
Miss Silly Prick 18 日 前
Lets talk about fire punch, where Agni burns the dude he doesnt like; then burns his children lmfao
tsubaki410
tsubaki410 18 日 前
Why is nobody mentioning Seryu Ubiquitous? Sure, her deal can be summed up as “Black and White Insanity”, but it also qualifies as this because it started when her dad was killed by rebel soldiers for being a cop and she subsequently held all lawbreakers equally responsible-and worthy of death- regardless of circumstances. Combine that with the aforementioned reason her dad was targeted and you’ve got several varieties of this trope all at once.
Jennifer Patrick
Jennifer Patrick 20 日 前
wow, you summed up steven universe in one phrase
CarrotT
CarrotT 21 日 前
Ranger’s Apprentice example: Stig (Before the herons win)
zye
zye 21 日 前
Wait burv
James Tapp
James Tapp 22 日 前
I like how hatred and racism against whites is okay because they supposedly have inherent societal privilege solely due to melanin levels they can't control. White privilege doesn't exist and TLOU 2 sucks.
Daniel M. Nyberg
Daniel M. Nyberg 24 日 前
Red strongly presupposes a moral position here. Makes it a bit frustrating from a philosophical point of view.
Scooter Bond
Scooter Bond 25 日 前
"Then, it will happen this way: You make the kill; but you find that your pain doesn't die with [the man who murdered your family]. So you go off into the night to find another face... and another... and another... until vengeance has become your whole life. And you won't know why." -- Batman Forever
San Yasi
San Yasi 25 日 前
Also, harming people that the revengy cares about hurts way more than any direct harm may do- easiest way to piss someone off is to harm someone they love. Always hated revenge as a motivation for a 'hero'- they're rarely good by the end (to me). But then, what isn't solved by a mustache and a new pair of glasses? It doesn't feel good to get revenge, it's even best not to get the revenge if you want to- the anger doesn't go away, there's just nowhere to direct it afterwards which usually leads to very bad things in the end so it might be best to leave something to direct it at if there's no other way. I've never killed anyone or physically harmed anyone in an act of revenge, but I have gotten revenge and I just felt shitty afterwards.
Stupid 88% of the time
As someone writing a “my family is all horrible people but I can’t do anything because they’ll literally kill me” I found this video very interesting and helpful
Lol im dead Hahaha
Jojo bizarre adventure
State Of Florida
State Of Florida 27 日 前
6:48 I think there's some limitations to that. Like someone can be just so massive of a bastard that the only people who would willingly talk to them would also have to be thunder cunts.
MkIllustrates
MkIllustrates 28 日 前
I feel like Miroku from InuYasha falls into this troupe
Yulianna Ochoa
Yulianna Ochoa 29 日 前
Conclusion: either kill the one who wronged you in a manner that no one will find out it was you who did it, or kill them and all their loved ones, so no one will come take revenge on you and your loved ones...
Ariane Rainsinger
I have a story where the mc gets literaly hounted by the sins of her father as he continued to exist and followed her as a specter keeping the horror of what he did present. Worsened is the whole thing by her creation having been the goal with which he justified what he did and her being a liteal amalgamation of her parents, so in a way she is him and has all the same potential to cruelty he had but thankfuly counter balanced by the traits of her mother.
Krieg Korpsman
Krieg Korpsman 29 日 前
And yet still the circumstance remains here that a loved one of you Was hurt by someone else. If you do not seek revenge, if you just let it go, did you ever care at all? Is that not almost like retroactively consenting to the crime?
Marks
Marks ヶ月 前
The only minor problem I see with breaking the cycle of vengeance thing, and this comes from someone who believes that just because you are hurt doesn't mean you can hurt others, is that, in some circumstances, giving up on vengeance isn't a sign of maturity and responsibility, but rather a sign of harmlessness, that others can hurt you without consequences. While it is obvious that if character B caused harm character C doesn't deserve harm, character C however could try to help the person his ancestor hurt, or at least try to compensate, especially, if character A's moral decision just caused other immoral characters to exploit it.
Gojo Satoru 五条悟
i haven’t finished the video but this trope is the plot of all the MCU spider-man movies so far lol (not counting no way home cause it ain’t out yet)
zeb jensen
zeb jensen ヶ月 前
I would seriously love to sit down and talk about my book with you guys or just random on general these are such good videos.
Thorin
Thorin ヶ月 前
Associating with character b is not a sin: well, most criminal code are disagreeing on it, even if there is a few minor detail in the fact of which associating is bad and which is not.
GjeraOnYT
GjeraOnYT ヶ月 前
"Revenge is a fools game" ~Arthur Morgan. --- SPOIL ALERT FOR THE RED DEAD SERIES --- The entire plot of Red Dead Redemption 1 is just dealing with the consequences of John Marston's quest for revenge in the Red Dead Redemption 2 post game (The prequel) Killing Micha Bell leads Edgar Ross to find John and then force him to hunt down the former members of the Van Der Linde Gang. After he's done, Edgar kills John, as John is the last member. He is the Last Enemy That Shall be Destroyed. And his son, Jack Marston, kills Edgar Ross, avenging his father and thus, continuing the cycle of revenge.
Sora9199
Sora9199 ヶ月 前
Wouldn't Jonas Venture Sr fit into this?
378th Pedro
378th Pedro ヶ月 前
I remember when 'Dinosaurs' had a sketch about an Operation "We Are Right". W.A.R.
mindburnjw
mindburnjw ヶ月 前
How do these feuds fall into greater circumstances, for example, often times people will use basic notions of privilege, without understanding what that other person has been through. It seems like in this situation the individual is the ultimate minority. I'm not implying that there arnt certain institutions that arnt accountable, but holding a singular person accountable for immutable characteristics seems strange, or excluding genuine dialogue based on the perception of where one comes from seems pretty shallow.
Ashla Icebreaker
Ashla Icebreaker ヶ月 前
*Attack On Titan intensifies*
Joseph Mother
Joseph Mother ヶ月 前
*cough*fnaf*cough*
Spencer Redding
Spencer Redding ヶ月 前
The first half of this video reminded me strongly of Berserk.
ahiro220
ahiro220 ヶ月 前
Spiderman fits this
Swiftyoooo
Swiftyoooo ヶ月 前
4:00 as yes, great example, also reminding me how pink diamond is an asshole all over again :)
miko v
miko v ヶ月 前
Just wanted to add to your Biblical notes that the passive karmic "sins of the father" attitude was very popular in the Roman-occupied Jewish world by the time Jesus came around, especially with the religious elite class like the Pharisees. So for example, people with disabilities deserved it because their parents sinned, or the Samarians deserved to be hated because of some conflict in the past. By contrast, Jesus was heavily opposed to that idea, which led to him associating with the marginalized while calling out the Pharisees.
Londe
Londe ヶ月 前
NO NOT CHARACTERS D AND E!!
Legokid
Legokid ヶ月 前
Let’s be real, Steven Universe is nowhere near good storytelling.
Abigail M.
Abigail M. ヶ月 前
jason todd
PineappleStix
PineappleStix ヶ月 前
2:46 do i see what i think i see getting struck by lightning
Tomn Peng
Tomn Peng ヶ月 前
You know, I've come across an interesting sociological explanation for vengeance before. So at its most basic, simple level, vengeance can be interpreted as a message: "Don't mess with me or you'll pay for it." Someone kills your wife and kids? You kill them, and then maybe people will be less likely to mess with you for it. The problem is your wife and kids will still be dead, and while any future wife and children might be thus made marginally safer, you're probably getting on in years and anyways they're not quite the same thing. So vengeance has a pretty poor payoff for the individual, considering. But what about for the community? Say Bob of the Berserker tribe goes on a roaring rampage of revenge after his family is killed, wreaking untold havoc on his attackers before dying in battle. The Berserker tribe could then start telling his story, and identifying with him, and above all, passing on the story to OTHER tribes and making sure THEY know them too. "Yeah, you heard of the Berserker tribe? Someone killed Bob's family once and in return he nearly wiped out an entire tribe. Berserkers are crazy, man, don't mess with them, it's not worth it." Thus, even though Bob doesn't benefit, the Berserkers DO, and thus encourage and cultivate an attitude of "I must have vengeance," lionizing Bob as a cultural hero because this helps protect the community at large. Of course, by cultivating such an attitude, they encourage others of the community to go on similar revenge rampages if they're wronged, thus growing the legend of "Those Berserkers you really don't want to mess with." There's two problems with this, though - first, if you keep encouraging generation after generation to take vengeance for slights, eventually you're very likely to end up with a culture that's caught up squabbling with each other over the slightest fault, making it hard for them to cooperate with either outsiders or each other. That leads into the second problem - that eventually, society develops in such a way that cooperating with each other on a scale larger than tribes and making sure such squabbles don't get out of hand is more beneficial to a community than the less sophisticated defense mechanisms of the past. It's HARD to run a modern society when everyone has a deep, emotional, and culturally-encouraged need to take personal vengeance on anyone who wrongs them. I'm extrapolating here, but this feels like where a lot of the "Revenge only harms everyone involved" stories come from - attempts to culturally push back against older narratives of "Revenge is totally awesome and everyone should do it" as societies get to the point where the costs start outweighing the benefits. It's interesting to note, however, that honor-based revenge cultures tend to be more common in societies without strong central authority, i.e. without someone they can turn to for impartial justice. That comes with a corollary - if ever a society comes to either lose the central authority, or come to believe in its inability to deliver justice for any reason (such as, say, massive corruption), we might very well find stories praising revenge becoming increasingly popular...
Tom Curl
Tom Curl ヶ月 前
What is the fathers sins hurt their own child and said child wants vengeance against their dad
sp8ce science
sp8ce science ヶ月 前
I can't believe you didn't mention or even show Iron Man 2, it's literally the textbook example of what not to do with the "sins of the father" trope.
Alexis Dowers
Alexis Dowers ヶ月 前
One movie franchise come to mind, well several this is the most prevalent, KILL BILL
ZhaneX24
ZhaneX24 ヶ月 前
Think one of my favorite uses of this trope is the plot of Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward, which combines several different variants wonderfully. You've got an immortal dragon holding an entire KINGDOM responsible for the crimes of its first king and his court, even after millennia, since to an ageless being, it might as well have been yesterday. Meanwhile only a small portion of the kingdom's nobility ever benefited from the actions of their forefathers; fewer still are even aware of it, perpetuating the war they wage in self-defense as a holy crusade rather than admit any wrongdoing in their nation's history.
gdash1996
gdash1996 ヶ月 前
Egh LOU2….
LazyMoth09
LazyMoth09 ヶ月 前
Shows I thought of while watching things: 1. JoJo's Bizarre Adventures 2. MLP: FiM (specifically the episode about the Apples and the Pears and AJ's mother that mirrors Romeo and Juliet except with a wholesome ending) 3. Avatar: The Last Airbender 4. She-Ra and the Princesses of Power (like when Glimmer's mother dies and she blames Catra for it even if Catra didn't kill her mother and her mother voluntarily sacrificed herself for the greater good and puts her Kingdom and her friends' lives in danger by her irrational behavior) ((which reminds me, Catra is the Magnificent Bastard trope, in my opinion, bc I hate Catra but also I love her))
Avnirvana Bonovika
So, I take it you ain't a fan of rape revenge films?
Sept77
Sept77 ヶ月 前
Red, you talked about a vengeance plot harming an innocent child by killing their parent, perpetuating the cycle of harm and vengeance, without referencing the best example of this: Kill Bill! The Bride- a former assassin who was betrayed by her fellow assassins on her wedding night, losing her groom, her child, and several years of her life- goes on a revenge streak against the rest of the Deadly Viper Assassination Squad. The first of the other assassins we see on screen has, in the intervening years, also married and had a daughter, and is content to live quietly in the suburbs. This does little to stop the Bride from killing the mother, ultimately right in front of the four-year-old little girl. Rather than make excuses, or try to apologize or set things right, the Bride simply tells the little girl that, when she's grown up and if she wants to get even, the Bride will be waiting for her. The cycle continues.
FirstTime ISawJupiter
If we ever get the Kill Bill sequel, we'll be able to see this perfectly
Dew Milk
Dew Milk ヶ月 前
Bigotry in a silly hat: the sequel to Punisher in a silly hat
Some ww1 german guy
Why does her avatar look like a child waiting for grandpa to come back with his reading glasses to read her a story?
Xx_RealGamer_xX
Xx_RealGamer_xX ヶ月 前
2:43 is that amogus in the background?????
ChappyOh
ChappyOh ヶ月 前
Hmm shiny chair
lune
lune ヶ月 前
summary of "sins of the father" - words that kill - would you speak them to me - with your breath so still - it makes me believe - etc.
Jack
Jack ヶ月 前
Attack on Titan does this. Marley is trying to genocide the Eldian people for something that happened in the distant past and the countries had been at peace for over 100 years.
Angelika Skoroszyn
I think revenge and morality have a complicated relationship. Our morality is driven by fairness. If both people did the same job both of them should get the same reward. Even monkey worked it out. And so if someone hurt us our first instinct to to make them suffer as much. That's why the first laws were all about "eye for eye" (the existence of slaves complicated it a bit but they were just a property so). Even nowadays our justice system is more about punishment and less about rehabilitation. It has the benefit of cutting short the revenge cycle tho And what happens when there's no neutral third party which can give us the illusion of justice? We do it the old way. We might have a very advanced civilization but our money brain still whispers to us "if you don't demand fair treatment now they'll hurt / exploit you again in the future" That's why we like heroes going full revenge mode. According to our modern model of morality it's a pretty stinky interes. According to our primal way of thinking it's only fair to give back what we got. It's a nice, simple power fantasy reminiscent of the good old days when everything was simple and you died at thirty
Shywhitefox
Shywhitefox 2 ヶ月 前
"Ok everyone, what did we learn today?" "Kill the bloodline..." "Kill the F***king bloodline!"
Melanie Lee
Melanie Lee 2 ヶ月 前
When you talked about vengeance, my mind immediately went to Sweeney Todd. If you haven't seen that musical, check it out. (I recommend the videotaped stage play or concert version above the film version.) I also thought of the original TV show Leverage, where Nathan's unresolved anger over his son's death sometimes endangers his crew. Now, I want to thank you for addressing slavery, bigotry, racism, and systemic racism in connection to The Sins of the Father. You asked, What if you continue to benefit from someone else's past sin against other people? What about Reparations? You also brought up how the "curse of Ham" was used to justify enslaving a race of people for centuries. You brought up how one uses vengeance as an excuse to aim your rage at convenient targets--which made me think of bad cops who abuse their authority. You also (unrelatedly, but it still applies) pointed out how someone needs to step out of the cycle of vengeance and concentrate on taking responsibility and fixing the problem rather than assuaging their feelings. (Of course, racism isn't just about vengeance or assumed inherited blessings or curses; it's also about greed, privilege, and self-protection. Otherwise, the whole thing would have ended soon after 1865. Then again, there are those other forms of racism with other peoples, including grabbing land from, and practically exterminating, Native Americans. That didn't end in 1865.)
University of Mars
University of Mars 2 ヶ月 前
The Montague Capulet Feud it's probably due to a common Feud in the Holy Roman Empire, between people who thought that the true power of the empire was with the Pope, and the other group thought I was with the emperor, but that's enough with the cluster f*** that was the Holy Roman Empire
Drew C
Drew C 2 ヶ月 前
I mean what isn’t solved with a mustache and a new pair of glasses?
Anya Blaze
Anya Blaze 2 ヶ月 前
The anime version of Romeo and Juliet comes to mind rewatching this.
Gustavo Flores
Gustavo Flores 2 ヶ月 前
...can you explain the Mishimas in Tekken?
Son Goten
Son Goten 2 ヶ月 前
I love the Bible!
YouTube Gopher
YouTube Gopher 2 ヶ月 前
That moment when you realize "Naruto" is literally Sins_of_the_Father.doc
Drabhat
Drabhat 2 ヶ月 前
The first half of Kill la Kill is just this concept
ryfors
ryfors 2 ヶ月 前
Thank you
Prophet of Greyism
Prophet of Greyism 2 ヶ月 前
Samson of the Bible comes to mind when talking about this trope. “REVENGE ON EVERYTHING!!!”
Fashionista Ballerina
Character A: "You will PAY for the way your father betrayed me all those years ago!" Character C: "Betrayed!?" Character A: "YES!" Character C: "What are you talking about!?" Character A: "Don't you already know!?" Character C: "No! I don't even know who my father is! He has been unavailable my whole life!" Character A: "Well, sucks to be you. I'm still getting revenge on you though."
Eternity Music
Eternity Music 2 ヶ月 前
OSP literally just explained why I thought The Last of Us 2 worked very well
Unnamed Chorf
Unnamed Chorf 2 ヶ月 前
You're right about this, but I can't help but love me a good revenge story.
Wgreene Wgreene
Wgreene Wgreene 2 ヶ月 前
This makes me wonder about the Death Korp of Krieg who's entire culture is based on the repentence of generations before turning them into a fatalistic almost suicidel society where dying for forgivness is the reason they fight. Or dows that even apply to the archtype at all
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