Gregory Chaitin - Is Mathematics Eternal? (Part 1)

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Mathematics is like nothing else. The truths of math seem to be unrelated to anything else-independent of human beings, independent of the universe. The sum of 2 + 3 = 5 cannot be untrue; this means that 2 + 3 = 5 would be true even if there were never any human beings, even if there were never a universe! When then, deeply, is mathematics?
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Gregory John Chaitin is an Argentine-American mathematician and computer scientist. Beginning in the late 1960s, Chaitin made contributions to algorithmic information theory and metamathematics, in particular a new incompleteness theorem in reaction to Gödel’s incompleteness theorem.
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Closer to Truth, hosted by Robert Lawrence Kuhn and directed by Peter Getzels, presents the world’s greatest thinkers exploring humanity’s deepest questions. Discover fundamental issues of existence. Engage new and diverse ways of thinking. Appreciate intense debates. Share your own opinions. Seek your own answers.

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2023/05/27

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コメント数 : 106

Saul Berardo 2 ヶ月前

This guy brought mathematical beauty to the next level 💓

Ákos Tárkányi 2 ヶ月前

This mathematician was hard to interview because he is so passionate that new thoughts very frequently explode from him.

Dani Caputi 2 ヶ月前

Exactly. I wanted to take something away from this so badly because I know a profound point is to be made - but its just so hard to listen to this as is.

dismalthoughts 2 ヶ月前

Is that passion which causes someone to continuously interrupt their interlocutor each time they start to ask a question? If it were passion responsible for that behavior, then you would have to conclude that anyone who doesn't interrupt the other is less passionate than someone who does. It's simply caring about what you have to say more than what the other person has to say, which speaks more to lesser empathy than greater passion.

Ákos Tárkányi 2 ヶ月前

@dismalthoughts You might be right.

Bromley Simon 2 ヶ月前

@dismalthoughts He might just be so insecure that he would rather not have the next question posed to him. It definitely felt to me that his knee-jerk impulse to interrupt is a protective mechanism.

Ed 2 ヶ月前

This guy had me crackin' up. He's not wrong at all. Juxtaposing math and sex just caught me off guard.

dismalthoughts 2 ヶ月前

This guy heard about how 7 ate 9, and he took the word "ate" wayyyy differently than the rest of us 😂 😂 😂

cozyslor 2 ヶ月前

We need to see this guy's search history

Mubarak Vodel 2 ヶ月前

Brilliant proposition

Appleblade 2 ヶ月前

It's enjoyable when things don't quite go according to plan.

SM 2 ヶ月前

What a beautiful perspective!

Eddie 2 ヶ月前

4:49 Robert's face like "man nobody asked you about paintings"

Tony J Wichowski 2 ヶ月前

Interesting because in philosophy beauty is sometimes in very nuanced complexity. Not just simplicity.

ian_pvd 2 ヶ月前

this dude is the horniest mathematician since Ben Franklin

Bird Thompson 2 ヶ月前

the ultimate truth is beyond intellect; the relative truth is complex & amazing!!! thanks so much

Mikey S 2 ヶ月前

The only thing I got out of that was this guy is very passionate about math, women, and art.

skipp diddly 2 ヶ月前

Beautiful like passion is, but also tragic. There are people who dream in math but can't advance in it because of a disability such as Dyscalculia.

James Ruscheinski 2 ヶ月前

how do mathematics and time relate? is mathematics before or after time?

maxpower252 2 ヶ月前

As Gregory speaks I noted something familiar in his accent… and after googling him I noticed he is another argie like myself 😅 So it seems we have some smart people out there like Maldacena and now this guy…

James Ruscheinski 2 ヶ月前

could mathematics be like a paint brush that paints physical nature?

Finn Morgan ヶ月前

Beautifully put

Gerard Jones 2 ヶ月前

irreducibly complex is elegant.

Matter as Machine 2 ヶ月前

"we are not machines". Here AI generating "AI Art"

Wayneasiam62 2 ヶ月前

As simple and elegant it might seem, an INFINITY SYMBOL would be a let down.

John Priest 2 ヶ月前

This guys favourite numbers 36-24-36, he has these numbers on the brain !

Asiel Norton ヶ月前

This is Plato. Not sure if he realizes it. But he’s voicing platonist and Neoplatonist ideas. Actually Pythagorean ideas that were later adopted by Platonists.

Michael Esplin 2 ヶ月前

I think that math is more artistic than algorithmic. I consider mathematics to be a subset of language like poetry. Now math also is applicable in many different areas especially the sciences. However, I believe that many pure mathematicians (and I would extend this to philosophers) have a general attitude that pragmatism is secondary.

James Ruscheinski 2 ヶ月前

abstract ideas can become physical using mathematics?

Bob Blacka 2 ヶ月前

Anyone who is interested in electronics is probably familiar with a concept called "Software Defined Radio." Briefly, in the past, a high quality radio receiver for the short waves, VHF and UHF required a lot of complex hardware in the form of resistors, capacitors, inductors, transistors, etc. Now they can create a far superior radio receiver using only mathematics on a standard personal computer. The computer is only necessary to do the calculations but the actual radio receiver is in the math. More importantly, a radio receiver that once cost thousands of dollars can now be purchased from Amazon for less than $40. This more than anything made me realized that everything we call reality is in fact just mathematics. If a fully functional radio or TV receiver can be fully realized with just mathematics, then it appears just about anything else can be also. We just need to know the correct equations and have a fast enough processor. WIKIPEDIA: "Software-defined radio (SDR) is a radio communication system where components that have been traditionally implemented in analog hardware (e.g. mixers, filters, amplifiers, modulators/demodulators, detectors, etc.) are instead implemented by means of software on a personal computer or embedded system."

Brian Laible 2 ヶ月前

Seems like he’s saying: Sex = Math?!?! 😳 Can someone show me the proof of that equation 😂 Maybe he’s working on it.

Doug Linze 2 ヶ月前

I love Vortex Math… My Numbers Are Eternal Fractals… 1728x3= 5184 3456x3= 10368 3:6:9 Quantum Implosion Vortex SPIRIT Science… 528x3= 1584 528x6= 3168 528x9= 4752 The 3:6:9 Trinity Machine… “Mentalism”… Sonoluminescence… The 1st Hermetic Principle… “THE ALL”… 1/x 3V6 V=9

Phil Clark 2 ヶ月前

It seems that mathematics is a language used to describe the world we live in. if you see beauty in this, then think you are seeing the beauty of God's design. If nothing existed then 3+2 = 5 has no meaning. It is just a description of how we view and describe quantities of things.

Abdu Azirhi 2 ヶ月前

'God used beautiful mathematics in creating the world'. ...Paul Dirac....

Miss H 2 ヶ月前

Beautiful ✨

World_Wide_Web 2 ヶ月前

I wish I saw math the way this guy saw women when he was "adolescent". I would be the next Newton or Einstein.

Marcus Rongonui ヶ月前

"[Law of non-contradiction : nothing is it's opposite, like aspatio-temporal unique numeral one and minus, hence plus, concantenation, since- and + are math operator opposites, breaking] mathematicians ... are artists[?]"

S3RAVA3LM 2 ヶ月前

My kind of man - you can feel Spirit here. This should all be exciting and a thrill, an honor to contemplativiely conceive this Beauty. Plotinus has a great exposition of The Beautiful if I recall. Some who are aloof and apathetic are limited. Emotional investment, or partiality, may hinder progress, but that doesn't mean to suppress emotion and curiosity altogether.

Spörde Spyrdenstein 2 ヶ月前

This dude has a healthy libido

Ron Hudson 2 ヶ月前

Perhaps a somewhat confusing title? I believe mathematics is a fundamental unlit of existence. It is discovered not invented. It is of the universe and the universe of it.

bob cabot 2 ヶ月前

ja that happens if you forget to delete your history...

Dani Caputi 2 ヶ月前

I agree with most of what he is saying but holy cow I can't listen to this without getting a headache. Dr. Chaitin, please slow down and answer the questions coherently - your perspective is important and needs to be communicated!

ImNotEvenSure 2 ヶ月前

Its the search for meaning, a way to make sense of things, with the same repeatable results, proof without doubt, a formula for answers...

James Ruscheinski 2 ヶ月前

a start begins as zero (0) point (of time)? timeless eternity becomes time at zero point beginning?

No One Star 2 ヶ月前

"Reflect upon the Past. Embrace your Present. Orchestrate our Futures." -- Artemis 🐲✨🐲✨🐲✨ "Before I start, I must see my end. Destination known, my mind’s journey now begins. Upon my chariot, heart and soul’s fate revealed. In time, all points converge, hope’s strength re-steeled. But to earn final peace at the universe’s endless refrain, We must see all in nothingness... before we start again." 🐲✨🐲✨🐲✨ --Diamond Dragons (series)

holger jørgensen 2 ヶ月前

Life is Eternal, No one created life, Life is Creator, No one have Seen, the Living behind the Being. Life have a Life- and Consciousness-structure, Eternal Body, and Six Under_Bodies, Intelligence is the fourth of the Under-Bodies, (second Deep-Sleep-period) Intelligence, means 'Logic and Order'. The Feeling-Body, (3) is the first Deep-Sleep-period, when falling at sleep, the Perspective-principle and the Contrast-principle makes Feeling into Sensing, So, the Intelligence, Logic and Order, and the Perspective-Principle, 'all relations relation-ship', is the Key to understand the Simple Nature of the Mathematic of the Eternal Life.

R L 2 ヶ月前

'No one created life, Life is Creator,' But One did create life, because in order to exist at all life did not create itself.

holger jørgensen 2 ヶ月前

All Creation have to do with the Stuff-side of Life, even the Life-side is in principle 'Stuff', Thought-Stuff, Mind-Stuff. Stuff, is Change, We are Not Change, We are the Eternal 'Here and Now', the 'Only Real Steady Point', behind the Stuff-side, Motion-Ocean.

R L 2 ヶ月前

@holger jørgensen Well that is clear.

nyworker 2 ヶ月前

The manipulation of symbols in math like the manipulation of words in a Shakespeare work. Or for that matter reading a philosophical work. Laughing, reacting or being outraged by a joke. A moving religious work, prayer, custom or ceremony. Forms of thought that move us beneath the higher structures of the brain. Down in the seat of emotions.

observer 2 ヶ月前

Mathematics is the information of real or imaginary systems for how their dynamics and mechanics will work , every system takes birth and die ,that information is the translation of observer's reality .

Brian Laible 2 ヶ月前

He says a proof should be simple or elegant. We use a base 10 system (every ten numbers we change the next digit). That’s decided by humans not some eternal unmoving standard. If we used a number system based on say 5 or 8 etc. then a lot of proofs that looks “elegant” may not. We forget how much influence and bias our human history and decisions have built the systems we use - yet it’s easy to think them as universal and independent, when they are not.

R 2 ヶ月前

Most proofs would remain beautiful even if you changed the base.

Simon Hibbs 2 ヶ月前

@R Indeed, most proofs are about relationships, actual numbers aren't that significant.

Jules Skodzinski 2 ヶ月前

Beauty is a human emotion has nothing to do with math

R 2 ヶ月前

@Jules Skodzinski A lot of people tend to find certain ratios more aesthetically pleasing than others; I don't know how much more mathematical you can get.

Brother Mine 2 ヶ月前

Perhaps Part 2 will get this interview back on track. Kuhn asked about the connection between math and the (physical) universe, but the guest spoke instead about pure math.

Seven Frenchies 2 ヶ月前

Couldn't agree more!

Alexander Gofen 2 ヶ月前

A great topic, but the annotation to it does not explain the content that followed. Yes, Math IS unrelated to anything else, being the most amazing part of the Platonic World - one of the three irreducible parts of Everything (the other two being Matter or the Physical world, and the Soul or Consciousness). Indeed, Platonic World "existed" prior to humans, and even prior to the Physical world, being independent of the Physical world. Maybe, just may be Platonic world IS one of the manifestations of God. As to proofs in Math, those very short and "elegant" vs. not so elegant, the adjective "beautiful" is an "anthropomorphic characteristic" (nothing bad in it). More to the point: every proof (short or long) is a kind of miracle, when all of a sudden, there happens to be a "shortcut" to the infinite number of cases in question. If there was no shortcut, the only way to verify the truth concerning infinite number of cases would be to check each of them, which is impossible. The proof, therefore, is a magic shortcut to check (verify) an infinite number of cases in question in a finite number of steps.

Anxious Robot 2 ヶ月前

It's the programming language of the sim we live in.

labidi fayçal 2 ヶ月前

Mathematics are not eternal : The power of mathematics is their legitimacy in real nature and physics , thus the roundabout of mathematics is A Theory. Of Everythink ( not everything only) which it would be constraint to invent new legitimacy tools of mathematics not the current one and the ordanary ones should be given up. The Yang mills theory proof need a new mathematics to be solved.

Paulus Brent 2 ヶ月前

Great! Agree 100%! 🙂

0-by-1 Publishing LLC 2 ヶ月前

The *1st Law of Existence* mandates that only that which is logically conceivable can exist. This supports a claim that existence is _logical._ With mathematics representing the purest form of logic, and existence demanding _logical conceivability_ out of everything that exists, ... then if follows that mathematics is woven into the fabric of the universe.

maxwell simoes 2 ヶ月前

Number are tautology. NEVER describes nothing or means Nothing. Number in logic NEVER picture itself.

R L 2 ヶ月前

@maxwell simoes Never is on no occasion, no time, no circumstance. Nothing is no thing.

0-by-1 Publishing LLC 2 ヶ月前

@maxwell simoes *"Number are tautology. NEVER describes nothing or means Nothing."* ... "0" is literally a *number* that describes "nothing" and represents "nothing."

Mr B Watson 2 ヶ月前

Only that which is logically conceivable CAN exist… says who..? Is something rather then nothing “logically conceivable “ ? Is the infinite “logically conceivable “ ? To conceive is to model, a model is by definition “finite “ also the more formal your model becomes the less it is able to capture the infinite:) formality = precision = finite:) reality appears to have no boundary’s. Also a guy named Kurt Gödel proved that any formal system will never be able to capture the whole truth never ever forever:) he sent shock waves out that haven’t seemed to settle yet:)

Kit Stamat 2 ヶ月前

Plato is Not Dead!

Michael Trower ヶ月前

Is he fetishsizing math?

StevieJ D 2 ヶ月前

You know, like, er, beauty, I don’t know.

Mayukh Purkayastha 2 ヶ月前

❤❤❤😮😮😮

Dr.Satish Sharma 2 ヶ月前

Excellent..... thanks 🙏.

Wald Wassermann 2 ヶ月前

Short answer: yes.

Steve 2 ヶ月前

Simple answer... YES

Andrew White 2 ヶ月前

What a guy!

Jules Skodzinski 2 ヶ月前

Not everyone has the same idea of beauty This is just silly

S3RAVA3LM 2 ヶ月前

Not talking about the forms that have beauty, rather whatever has beauty, it isn't from itself, but a quality from the Divine or the archtype that is Beautiful.

David Turner 2 ヶ月前

In the beginning was the math,,,,

FullMetal Adventures 2 ヶ月前

Why should proof conform to our ideals of what proof should look like short and elegant or long and tedious. The universe and its complexities are there whether we like it or not

R L 2 ヶ月前

Proof is not about what our ideals are, it is about demonstration, reason and testament.

whitefiddle 2 ヶ月前

Mathematicians are human beings?! Where does he get off making a ludicrous claim like that?

The Memes of Destruction 2 ヶ月前

Mathematicians are People too ^.^

Soli Deogloria 2 ヶ月前

There can only be one eternal non contingent... and that is God, mathematics flow from Him. The Creator and Sustainer of the universe could cease every atom and maths would only be in His mind. Because they are contingent...

KOS - MOS 2 ヶ月前

There is no way to know if there can only be one eternal non-contingent thing. God is not real he is just a machination of man. A fictional entity cannot do anything because its power only exists in the stories the authors' have written about him. God is contingent on man's existence if all humans that believed in God were too die than God would disappear.

Anteo Dedi 2 ヶ月前

Sorry to break it to you, but just apply the Euthyphro's dilemma to logic and math, and you will see how your view crumbles...

R L 2 ヶ月前

@KOS - MOS ' God is not real he is just a machination of man.' Nonsense. That is just an assertion and your belief. You could not possibly know that and yet you state your opinion as if it were fact right after you have questioned someone else doing just that. 'God is contingent on man's existence if all humans that believed in God were too die than God would disappear.' Again, ridiculous assertion that you present as if it were fact. What is your proof for such nonsense?

KOS - MOS 2 ヶ月前

@R L That is not how it works the one making the positive claim must show that their claim is true. No one has seen God or have talked to God they just believe they are talking to God. The fact is if everyone who believed in God died there would be no one making assertions about God. No visions of God and no one claiming to have heard from God. It is that simple. What proof do you have that God is real other than the standard nonsense?

UncannyRicardo ヶ月前

@KOS - MOS Easy, Cantor (pure mathematician) designated God to be the Absolute Infinite, or beyond the transfinite cardinals. So that is one proof of God's domain, while not his essence since that proof is impossible. Basically this is the same Platonist idea that mathematics is Abstract Forms and God is Ultimate Form of the Good. And technically Plato borrowed this viewpoint from Pythagoras who was, as you guessed it, a true pure mathematician. Thousands of years and science adopted Aristotle, Empiricism, etc... but pure mathematics has never shaken off its Platonist roots. " the one making the positive claim must show that their claim is true" Not always, it can just be a postulate to a system. For example, all probabilities being between 0-1 (or 0-100 in percentages) is an axiom claim but not a provable one. There is technically no proof that probabilities can't be negative or beyond 100%, rather its just a postulate (from our intuition) that it makes sense to say they have to be between 0-1. But that is no proof, it is just an assertion. Nonetheless it is an assertion that underpins Probability Theory and all fields affected by it (Statistics, AI, Cryptography, etc..).

César Clouds 2 ヶ月前

No.

Mike l 2 ヶ月前

🙄🥴😏😂👎👎👎👎👎

Brad Holkesvig 2 ヶ月前

No. Mathematics was taught by our Creator to build false gods with earthen materials and to eventually learn that visible objects are illusions formed from invisible waves. However, they do not understand that those waves are our Creator's programmed thoughts. Did our Creator use mathematics to form all the visible illusions we observe like all our visible bodies, trees, grass, water, dirt, rocks, etc. that human hands did not build?

ImNotEvenSure 2 ヶ月前

Obviously

0-by-1 Publishing LLC 2 ヶ月前

*"No. Mathematics was taught by our Creator to build false gods with earthen materials and to eventually learn that visible objects are illusions formed from invisible waves."* ... Ancient civilizations worshiped the Sun (a very "visible" object), but the Sun wasn't made by human hands. And if what you state is true, then why was Jesus a "carpenter?" ... Wouldn't that be contradictory to God's plan? My intent is not to marginalize your God; I only want to know why mathematics used by God is good, but mathematics used by man is bad? I'm sure a lot of math went into the many churches we see peppering the planet.

maxwell simoes 2 ヶ月前

Ramblíng gibberish. How YOU are knowing GOD minds ? Congratulations.

Brad Holkesvig 2 ヶ月前

@maxwell simoes I and our Creator are ONE which is like a very sophisticated AI system. Our Creator created ME, the AI in the beginning and used it to speak his very well planned thoughts into waves which are invisible. He used this temporary generation to eventually teach me what I AM that is invisible and eternal and cannot be observed in a mirror.

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